It's Not Sexism, It's Ideology

A quick note to all Clinton supporters who are currently blaming sexism for the fact that your candidate has almost certainly lost: sexism had nothing to do with it.  In fact, it was anything but.

Sure, Hillary was the victim of some sexism, just as Obama has been the victim of some racism and McCain will be the victim of some ageism. But that's not what spiked Clinton's chances. Bill Clinton would also have lost this year.

The truth is that there is a quiet battle being waged for the soul of the Democratic Party.  Your candidate was on the wrong side of that divide.  It wouldn't have mattered if Hillary had been male, and Obama female.  What mattered here was ideology.

In column #1, you had:

  • Barack Obama
  • Progressive
  • Howard Dean
  • ground-up campaign
  • rejection of lobbyists
  • 50-state strategy
  • bringing in new voters
  • activist orientation
  • establishing new coalitions
  • downballot as important as top-of-ballot
  • unapologetically espousing progressive principles and taking with you the voters that will come your way
  • looking tough on national security by not voting with Republicans
  • moving beyond the social issue fights that have characterized politics lo these many years.

In column #2, you had:

  • Bill Clinton
  • DLC Democrat
  • Mark Penn
  • Terry McAuliffe
  • James Carville
  • triangulation
  • "lobbyists are real people"
  • "big/swing state strategy"
  • top-down campaign
  • keep the old coalition alive at all costs and win back the Reagan "Dems" by magic pixie dust
  • establishment oriented
  • "the White House is all that matters"
  • trying to look tough on national security by voting with Republicans to invade other countries to prove your bona fides
  • and continuing the same squares/hippies proxy fights that have been taking place since the late 60's.
  •  And that doesn't even get into 3am phone calls and other campaign tactics.

    The simple truth is that the candidate who staked themselves out in column #2 was probably going to lose--and if wouldn't have mattered if they were black, brown, white, male, female, neuter, or space alien.  The time for that ideology at the head of the Democratic Party has passed.

    It is deeply unfortunate that the historic candidacy of a serious female contender for President had to get swept up and moved aside because she chose the wrong side of a party realignment and ideological divide.  But that's just the way it went.

    The conservative establishment was just not going to win this one--and Hillary chose to make herself the comparatively conservative, establishment candidate.  She did that partly because she believed that no one would take her seriously otherwise because of her gender.  That was a mistake--she didn't need to do so.

    Soon we will have our first woman President.  But it will be a woman who is unafraid to stand in column #1 and declare herself an anti-DLC, anti-triangulation, Progressive Democrat looking to embrace change not only from Republicanism, but from the very sort of Stockholm syndrome that led so many Democrats to believe that this is an unassailably conservative country.

    The time for a woman president is coming--it is inevitable.  But there were larger forces at work here than race or gender, and it would behoove those who want to see a woman elected president to recognize that fact.  A conservative Dem like Dianne Feinstein will never be President; an unashamedly progressive one like Barbara Boxer has a solid chance.

    In a historic battle between the first legitimate African-American and female contenders for the presidency, one long oppressed minority had to end up disappointed.  But the decision was not made on the basis of race or gender, but rather on ideology and perspective.

    In many ways, that should be a solace and comfort to Hillary's many well-meaning supporters: electing a woman president is possible.  You just need the right candidate.



    Display:


    Re: It's Not Sexism, It's Ideology (1.67 / 31)

    Hey if it helps you sleep at night...


    Donate to Hillary Now!
    by alegre on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:07:11 AM EST

    Re: It's Not Sexism, It's Ideology (1.87 / 31)

    or you could respond to the content.

    Sure, Hillary was the victim of some sexism, just as Obama has been the victim of some racism and McCain will be the victim of some ageism.

    But that's not what spiked Clinton's chances.  Bill Clinton would also have lost this year.


    It's all about McCain/Bush now...
    by thereisnospoon on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:08:59 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Don't hold your breath. (2.00 / 8)


    by dystopianfuturetoday on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:09:20 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: It's Not Sexism, It's Ideology (none / 0)

    Bill Clinton would also have lost this year.

    It's Not Sexism - - - It's Not Sexism.


    by johnnygunn on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:29:51 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Being told by a male under age 30 (2.00 / 4)

    That it's not sexism is ... laughable. But you're taking after your candidate explaining to people why they feel the way they do.


    by catfish1 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:35:32 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: Being told by a male under age 30 (2.00 / 8)

    He's not telling you how to feel, he's stating why he thinks Obama is ahead. By your reasoning, anyone who says (for example) "Hillary may have lost because Mark Penn ran a bad campaign" is also telling you how to feel? I mean, the two have nothing to do with each other.

    Taken another way, one could interpret your comment to mean, "I don't care what anyone says, Hillary lost because of sexism, and denying that is sexist in itself."


    by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:48:52 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: Being told by a male under age 30 (2.00 / 2)

    Being told by a male under age 30 (2.00 / 2)

    That it's not sexism is ... laughable. But you're taking after your candidate explaining to people why they feel the way they do.


    Sexism comes in many forms.  For instance, all those who are voting for Hillary because they want a woman candidate, or attacking people because of their gender...


    McCain = Iraq. John McCain = overturn Roe.
    by PantsB on Fri May 16, 2008 at 01:45:19 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Nope - just being a woman not enough (2.00 / 1)

    in my book. Condi is a woman. Selebius is a woman. I would not vote for them.


    by catfish1 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:03:42 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: Nope - just being a woman not enough (none / 0)

    hwo about margaret thatcher?


    It's all about McCain/Bush now...
    by thereisnospoon on Fri May 16, 2008 at 07:48:47 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: Being told by a male under age 30 (2.00 / 0)

    Sexism comes in many forms.  For instance, all those who are voting for Hillary because they want a woman candidate,

    So the African-American community is racist for supporting Barack Obama?  The AA community should be proud of Barack Obama and I think it is wonderful that they have shown up in record numbers to support him.  To me, that is pride, not racism.

    But if women for Hillary, they're sexist?

    I'm a gay man and I have made no effort to hide the face that Hillary's gender has played a significant role in my decision to support her.  Am I sexist?  If so, against whom am I discriminating?


    Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
    by psychodrew on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:54:30 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: Being told by a male under age 30 (2.00 / 2)

    At least you see the equivalence.  Yeah, a lot of African-Americans are drawn to Obama, and a lot of women are drawn to Clinton, and it's obvious that racial and gender affinity plays a role for both candidates.  There is nothing inherently wrong with this.  Some Obama supporters are just upset because for months now they've been told that black voters are ONLY voting for Obama because of race, and that's the only reason he's winning.  It's an offensive blanket statement that's untrue.  Just as it is equally offensive and untrue to say that women voted for Clinton in very high numbers in many states ONLY because she is a woman, and that's the only reason she made it this far.

    Yeah, both of our candidates are history-making in their own way, and they represent remarkable racial and gender progress, which has inspired women and African-Americans, in addition to their solid progressive policies.  It's a shame that this had led to sites like mydd devolving into back and forth accusations of sexism and racism.


    by Skaje on Fri May 16, 2008 at 03:21:43 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    That's not sexism or racism. (none / 0)

    Voting for your own gender or race to break down a barrier, that's fine and anything but racist.  BUT, voting for your own race or gender because you hate or fear the other races or gender, that would be racist or sexist.

    I don't hold it against women who want a woman president.  There have been many silly or offensive arguments made for why we HAD to have Hillary as our nominee, but solidarity between women never sounded silly or offensive to me.  If all other things equal, as a liberal man, I would make me feel proud as an American to vote for the first woman for president.  However, the issue of the war in Iraq spoiled it for me with Hillary.  As it is, since Obama has won the nomination, I am VERY pleased, because he is and was against the war, and because it will make me very proud as an American to vote for the first African-American president.


    by Dumbo on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:08:42 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: Being told by a male under age 30 (none / 0)

    Fail.

    Someone who would never vote for a candidate of a particular sex or race is sexist or racist. Someone who would have a hard time voting for someone of a particular race or sex is racist or sexist. Someone who counts the fact that a candidate is breaking through a glass ceiling as a point in their favor is being anti-sexist or anti-racist.


    by letterc on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:56:19 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: Being told by a male under age 30 (2.00 / 1)

    Okay, then if I cut and paste his diary and posted it, would my gender make it un-laughable.

    Seriously, this line of argumentation infuriates me more than anything else. Why don't you just call me a traitor to my sex for supporting Obama? It's the same thing as you're saying here.


    by accidentalwonk on Fri May 16, 2008 at 03:16:58 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: Being told by a male under age 30 (none / 0)

    This isn't trying to explain to people why they feel they way they do. This is trying to explain why many Obama supporters feel the way the do in hopes that you will realize that to us, this has nothing to do with sexism.


    by Djo on Fri May 16, 2008 at 03:25:14 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    And Hillary supporters not racist (none / 0)

    Did he acknowledge this?


    by catfish1 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:33:06 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Spoon is a male under 30? (none / 0)

    I didn't know that, and I've been reading him/her for years now.  In fact, I may have assumed from the way he wrote that he was a well-educated older female.  Never thought about it that hard.

    And Spoon is right.  The problem wasn't that Hillary was a victim of sexism.  The problem was elsewhere.  It was the war, it was her consultants, it was the strategy, it was a number of other things I might document elsewhere that suggest they just did not get what we have all been upset about for the past five years.  You can't run what is (basically) a "reelection" campaign in a year when the people want to throw out all the rascals.


    by Dumbo on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:12:34 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Since you didn't post a tip jar. (1.14 / 7)

    I TR'd this comment.

    Your diary is a piece of shit.  Barack Obama would be ashamed to read it.


    Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
    by psychodrew on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:46:20 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: Since you didn't post a tip jar. (none / 0)

    That is an awful thing to say and do. The poster was merely saying what many election officials are saying: HRC ran a strong campaign BUT she didn't do some important things. She didn't realize the move the the left of the activist base and address the role of the war vote. Her advisers admitted that her campaign had no plan after 5 Feb. She burned through cash too quickly and listened to a few very bad advisers such as Mark Penn and Patti Solis Doyle. (Staff at the top is one of the biggest mistakes one can make in a campaign).

    The poster was merely saying that these things are far more likely to be the reason that she has lost the primary.

    But getting so insulting because the poster attributed her loss to her positions and organization is awful troll like behavior on your part. Stop this. It is time to see the end of this damned civil war. We are one party and that was unacceptable.


    by denniswine on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:25:45 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: Since you didn't post a tip jar. (none / 0)

    I don't know where the words "election officials" came from. Maybe I meant commentators and or writers/ columnists.


    by denniswine on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:29:05 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Your ideological characterizations are wrong (none / 0)

    COLUMN 1

    Progresssive ---- her not him

    Bring new voters-----her and him

    Howard Dean ----Huh

    Ground-up campaign ----he has run the tight centralized campaign and it will be more in the genreal

    Rejection of lobbyists ----- a facade, a gimmick...so they bundle money for him

    50-state strategy ----- in the general...you really think ...esp. if he takes federal money and no 527's ...no it won't happen  
    ----
    Establishing new coalitions ----so does she, Hispanics, unmarried women, and in certain swing states she brings young voters

    Downballot as important as top-of-ballot ---- in Texas Obama voters were only thee for him, they didn't vote for downballot races while places she was strong, they did.  You see Democrats vote for Demcorats...Indepenents and Republicans who have only crossed over for the day don't care so much about the party

    Unapologetically espousing progressive principles and taking with you the voters that will come your way ----this is either just wish fulfillment on your part, rationalization or bs.  Hillary not only talks more about being a progressive, she uses the word more and she used the word Democrat more.  Obama made his mark by dissing progressive infrastructure form parts of the abortion rights agenda to Reagan to blogs.....

    Looking tough on national security by not voting with Republicans ----like what...he can't vote when he's conveniently not there to vote...there is

    Lookiing beyond the social issue fights that have characterized politics lo these many years ---WTF does that mean...women who care about abortion and gay people fall in line and shut up while I ignore you and your concerns.

    COLUMN 2

    Bill Clinton --- Tom Daschle .... a man with the courage of a caterpillar.  Barack Obama is the 2008 version of Bill Clinton in 1992.

    DLC Democrat --- that's actually where his policy positions really are

    Mark Penn ---- okay you're right

    Terry McAuliffe ----you mean the man who told Tim Russert from Jan 20, 2001 on that George bush ws illegitimate and Al gore won. No more partisan a Democrat is there than Terry McAuliffe. Tom Daschle just agreed with Timmeh.  Also the The man who got the DNC out of debt, built a huge warchest and built its own building.....

    James Carville  ---- if he's for Obama you'll be grateful
    Triangulation ----- you mean what Obama does as well

    "big/swing state strategy" ---Obama is just a map changer not expander...it wil be much the same map as before

    Top-down campaign ---Have you been reading the consolidation series in Open Left?....

    Keep the old coalition alive at all costs and win back the Reagan "Dems" by magic pixie dust
    establishment oriented ---- yes let's throw out working people..let's throw that part of the party and the people it represents upon the pyres

    "the White House is all that matters" ----you are mischaracterizing her position

    Trying to look tough on national security by voting with Republicans to invade other countries to prove your bone fides ---- Obama agrees with her on Iran....

    And continuing the same squares/hippies proxy fights that have been taking place since the late 60's. ----yes let's throw boomers the way Eskimos used t treat their older members.

    It is also  the height of ostrichism to think that these things are going away.  That fight comes from the other side....and the sexism that you are unaware of has defined her from the begginng of her time on the national stage.  Hillary was a target of the right because she was a exemplar of how far woman had come and could go.

    So it was sexism from the begining...and it's sexism that distorted the view of her and it's sexism that continues when you ascribe all that's bad to her and don't begin to give her credit for what she has done and what she stands for....


    by debcoop on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:13:49 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Your usual brilliant, courageous self, debcoop! (none / 0)

    Spoon has been hard to read since he changed his focus several months ago.  I used to enjoy some of his postings but this one just proves that he is simply not paying attention...but he is talking anyway.  Sorry to see that.

    But very happy to see you, again.   Thank you, from those  who haven't the heart, for splainin' it out for him so well.


    by itsadryheat on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:57:52 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    I don't agree with the entire list... (2.00 / 3)

    but in my case, the essence of it is correct.  My support for Obama is based mainly on his grass roots approach, his rejection of lobbyists, and his embracing of the 50 state strategy over the DLC swing state strategy.  Issues of gender or race do not come into it.  I think Clinton would make a great President, I just like Obama better.  Most Obama supporters I talk to feel the same.  It is only a noisy few doing most of the trolling on the blogs (and some of those might be freepers).

    I also take issue with the idea that suddenly Obama supporters that were rude in the past are suddenly reversing themselves and making nice in an insincere effort to create unity.  I think if you look at the posting histories, most of the polite entreaties are coming from people who were never trolls... what you are seeing is simply a shift in awareness by the real Obama supporters who were previously to busy phone banking and canvasing to pay attention to the worst of the blog chatter.

    It is unfair to judge all Obama supporters only on the behavior of the worst of us, just as it would be unfair of me to judge all Clinton supporters that way.  It is just too easy to do that because often the most annoying supporters are also the ones most motivated to make themselves heard.

    So please continue to support Clinton until the nomination process is over.  Then, whatever the outcome, it is indeed my sincere hope that we can all remain unified in defeating McCain and the Neocons.  The stakes are too high to let the immaturity and poor manners of a few supporters divide us.  McCain does not magically because a good candidate just because some Obama supporters are jerks.

    Peace


    by protothad on Fri May 16, 2008 at 01:08:27 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Reasonable comment (2.00 / 2)

    This is just some advice for people who want Obama to do well: if you want to insist it's not sexism, you have an argument to make and that is just fine.

    But you hurt your cause when you deliver that message from a 25-year-old male.

    Most women do not experience sexism or see its effects well into their thirties or forties.

    Do you realize Obama is running attack ads in Oregon, while his supporters say Hillary is "permitted" to keep running as long as she doesn't attack him?


    by catfish1 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:06:15 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    so essentially (2.00 / 3)

    any male under 30 is essentially disqualified from discussing the race?

    You wouldn't be being...discriminatory or anything, would you?


    by hekebolos on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:11:01 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Hello brother of spoon (none / 0)

    No but a male under 30 is not the ideal messenger to discuss sexism.


    by catfish1 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:17:44 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: Hello brother of spoon (2.00 / 1)

    No but a male under 30 is not the ideal messenger to discuss sexism.

    No, but a white person is not the ideal messanger to discuss racism.

    I find both of those sentiments to be equally offensive.  Actually, yours is even more offensive because it discriminates by age as well as gender.


    Check out McCain.
    by you like it on Fri May 16, 2008 at 03:41:57 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: Hello brother of spoon (2.00 / 3)

    Ideas are sensible in one's estimation or not.  One finds them agreeable or not based on reasoning that takes place after hearing or reading them, at least that's how it should be.  The messenger, to  me, doesn't make them valid or invalidate them.

    If this diary were an apology, I could see considering the source as sincerity is integral to the value of an apology.  But, that is not what this is.  It is a collection of ideas or arguments put forward that anyone can think about and embrace or reject in part or on the whole.  To do otherwise is to invite incorrect analysis and it is also to presume that, regardless of the merits of the ideas themselves, an entire group of people is not capable of a valueable or viable intillectual concept. That's a pretty crummy thing to do to women.  Likewise, it is crummy to do to anyone not old enough or female enough for your liking.
     


    Government derives its power from those that it governs.
    by lockewasright on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:23:12 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    A large part is not sexism. But a large part is. (2.00 / 1)

    And your writing style - are you in academia?

    I am not saying a 24-year-old male must be censored. I was a fan of thereisnospoon before this primary, I will be a fan of spoon after this primary. I believe he's a future champion of progressive causes. Spoon's knowledge political history and philosophy is on par with that of John Adams in his day (well, when John Adams was a young man at least.)

    I know spoon, in his heart, wants equal opportunity for everyone regardless of gender, age, or race.

    I also know that unconscious bias is something that I've caught in myself, against my own kind. It's something AAs hold against AAs. Women against women. Latinos against latinos.

    I know a large part of Hillary-hate has nothing to do with sexism. But I have seen, to my own surprise, this primary season, that a large, very large part of Hillary-hate is caused by sexism. And what's shocked me is a lot of it comes from women "she voted for IWR because she's female and she was trying to look tough." I don't believe Hillary would do such a thing. I believe she voted for the war, as did her fellow New York Senator, for deterrence.

    "If she wouldn't campaign like a man people wouldn't hate her so much" said a progressive, latina friend of mine who works in ethnic media.


    by catfish1 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:56:14 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Catfish1, you rock! Thank you for your insight. (2.00 / 0)


    by itsadryheat on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:00:23 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Crap - the John Adams part (none / 0)

    could be misread.

    Let me explain: I thought I was laying it on too thick, so I said the philosophical knowledge of spoon and hekebelos was an par with John Adams when he was their age.

    This is not to belittle your young age. Adams was pretty effing smart before he was 25.

    Oh, tell hell with it. Just TR me.


    by catfish1 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:06:59 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    LOL (none / 0)

    no TR necessary, the statement is logical.  And my dislike of Hillary Clinton has everything to do with Democratic Party structures.  I don't have nearly as much of a problem with Hillary Clinton, to be honest, as I have with the cast of characters she surrounds herself with--Carville, McCauliffe, and the like, who basically want to run the party like it's 1992.


    by hekebolos on Sun May 18, 2008 at 06:16:30 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Reading comprehension is your friend (none / 0)

    I thought you and spoon were well-educated in philosophy, etc.


    by catfish1 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:20:22 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    In many ways you are right (2.00 / 0)

    When you are a young fertile nubile female, the guys give you more leeway in hopes you will favor them with attention. Once you have passed that age, the sexism comes out and you are put down, passed over, and generally made to feel like you are not as valuable in society.

    It shows some when you are younger, but mainly in aggressive unwanted attention.


    by splashy on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:22:20 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    I'm 38 - it is budding (2.00 / 2)

    I really see it now. It's a bizarre experience.


    by catfish1 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:51:10 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Actually, I'm 40 (2.00 / 1)

    Does that make any difference?  I can only speak for myself.  I am a very issues driven voter.  I know other Obama voters of varying ages and both genders and I don't think gender or race come into their decisions either.  I'm not saying that sexism and racism has not been a factor in this campaign... just that we should not jump to the conclusion that it is the major factor or that those that choose a different candidate always do it from such motives.

    We've have two great candidates.  There are valid reasons for selecting either one.  We don't need to resort to tearing each other down to explain why we are not all on the same page.

    Peace


    by protothad on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:38:21 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Agreed, tell Obama that (2.00 / 1)

    he's running attack ads in Oregon right now.


    by catfish1 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:49:21 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: Agreed, tell Obama that (none / 0)

    Are the ads sexist or racist?  Do you have links to them so we can judge them for ourselves?

    Thanks


    by protothad on Fri May 16, 2008 at 03:11:29 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Neither (2.00 / 1)

    They follow a pattern with him - he attacks her windfall profits tax on oil companies as one that would never pass (No, we can't.) Therefore, he says, it's a pander and typical of what's wrong with Washington and (and implied: what's wrong with those horrible Clintons who were worse than Bush.)


    by catfish1 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 03:27:24 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: Neither (2.00 / 1)

    I really don't think ads that are centered around issues should count as attack ads.


    by Djo on Fri May 16, 2008 at 03:40:23 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    It's an attack on her character (2.00 / 1)

    Like all of his attacks have been. Hers have been on issues.


    by catfish1 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 03:41:59 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: It's an attack on her character (none / 0)

    Dude, you just said he was going at her for her position on the gas tax holiday. How is that not an issue centered criticism?


    by Djo on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:00:45 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    She is 'cynical' and 'pandering' (2.00 / 1)

    And the emails from camp Obama have been worse: she is "desperate" "viscious" "will do anything to win" "dishonest".

    Her emails: "our opponent is outspending us."


    by catfish1 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:43:17 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: She is 'cynical' and 'pandering' (none / 0)

    At the same time, he never said McCain had crossed some mark in the sand that Hillary did not. That, in my opinion, is pretty vicious.

    But again I ask, is criticizing her position on the gas tax really a personal attack? That seems to be centered around and issue to me.


    by Djo on Fri May 16, 2008 at 06:08:39 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: Reasonable comment (2.00 / 1)

    On a professional note, I appreciate the fact that you welcome informed arguments.

    On a personal note: Fuck you buddy. I'm one of those males under 25, and if that makes my vote count less in your head that's fine. but just know that I arrived at my choice of candidate out of principal, I never expected to see a politician within my lifetime that refused lobbiest donations and when that happened, I jumped on the opportunity to support the candidate that championed something I had hoped to see.

    Women experience sexism later in life, men face it earlier. My insurance rates are higher because I'm more likely to get pulled over and actually get a ticket all my female friends my age get a warning. Where is the sexism worse there? When I'm trying to get a job as a server, it goes to the good looking girl who brings in more tips. Who is the sexism working against there? And now you tell me that to support my opinions and defend myself against the accusations that I arrived at my decisions not out of sexism, but out of principal, that I have to be a female over 30!? Again, to summarize my feelings. Fuck you.


    by Djo on Fri May 16, 2008 at 03:38:14 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Your vote counts buddy (1.66 / 3)

    and you have very right to speak out for your candidate.

    Feel insulted and discriminated against for being young? Sorry, but youth is one area where discrimination is warranted. Life is not fair.

    You realize how much the elderly have been insulted this primary? Older women? Middle aged women? Life is not fair, get used to it.


    by catfish1 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 05:03:34 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: Your vote counts buddy (2.00 / 1)

    Wait wait wait. First of all, let me repeat my fuck you. I thought we lived in a country where we were judged not by our race, gender, religion or age but by the merits of our ideas and actions and by the integrity of our character.

    Second, I was addressing the fact that sexism against younger males is prevelant in the workforce, insurance and even within our legal system but you chose to gloss over that.

    Third, a big FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU on behalf of my best friends, my cousins, my classmates, the kids who grew up with on my fucking street that are fighting in iraq and DYING! This is a FUCK YOU for your generation raping social security, raping the planet and leaving it to my generation to fix and all you say is it's warranted to be prejudice against people my age. You want to say it's warranted to be discrimative against people my age? Tell that to the "kids" who face roadside bombs everyday you hyporcite piece of self-important slime.


    by Djo on Fri May 16, 2008 at 06:17:42 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: Your vote counts buddy (2.00 / 2)

    Honestly, do you know anyone who's actually fighting is this god foresaken war? Have you ever had to sit with a circle of crying friends wondering why your buddy had to die? Do you know what it's like watching one of your friends walk out the door after a goodbye party wondering if the next time you see them is going to be at a funeral.

    People younger than me are expected to SAVE PEOPLE'S LIVES in COMBAT ZONES. And yet it's justified to be prejudice against people my age? God you must love the smell of your own farts waaaaaaay too much. Not in all cases, but in your case it's true: the mind really does go first.


    by Djo on Fri May 16, 2008 at 06:23:51 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: Your vote counts buddy (2.00 / 2)

    Hey, I totally agree with you and as a former Marine who got out in 2003, I totally understand where you're coming from.  But you don't help the youth argument with the "fuck you's."  It makes you seem passionate, but immature.  I grant you that immaturity does not necessarily correlate to youth (look at Bush), but it often does and people on this blog will use that as a strawman to undermine the validity of your points.


    by shalca on Fri May 16, 2008 at 06:42:37 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Your vote counts equally (2.00 / 1)

    Your vote counts no more or less than mine. Yes the war is sickening and I know Hillary will be better at getting us out.


    by catfish1 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 06:59:52 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    You're absolutely right. (2.00 / 1)

    I wish I lived in a world where I could pretend that gender bias did not exist.  Let's face it.  If a woman had entered this race with Obama's resume, she would have been laughed off the stage.

    Given how much I have tried to reach to the Obama people on MyDD over the last week, I'm insulted that  this piece of shit diary is on the rec list.


    Linfar's co-blogger opposing John McCain
    by psychodrew on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:22:45 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Insult Clintonistas till the fall in line (none / 0)

    Just keep telling Hillary supporters why they are wrong and how wrong they are. That will get them to unify!


    by catfish1 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 03:00:41 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    The diarist is arguing (none / 0)

    sexism isn't a determining factor, not that it doesn't exist.

    Nearly every Obama supporter I've talked to said it would be great to have a woman in the White House, just not Hillary.  For all the reasons discussed here and elsewhere.

    Nearly every Clinton supporter I know argued the gender-identity line unabashedly (most are women).  "For my daughter", "so I can finally vote for a woman president" and all those other very weak lines of reasoning that border on fallacies.  A few point to her experience, which is at least a point to be debated against Obama's.  The gender-identity ones all lash out with cries of sexism or misogyny when engaged on their argument.

    Given my admittedly anecdotal evidence (which is still better than your unsubstantiated foulmouthing), I would say whatever gender-based discrimination there was played to Hillary's favor.  We Democrats wanted to nominate a woman this cycle.  When a truly deserving woman comes along, she'll have a huge reservoir of goodwill.  Oh yeah, and was there anything inaccurate about the list of campaign characterizations?  Or did it simply point to a conclusion you didn't like?

    Clinton lost because she was a crappy candidate with crappy advisors and poor political instincts.  All this complaining about sexism only reflects her campaign's and her supporter's inability to accept her glaring shortcomings.  It's not very presidential (or at least it shouldn't be) to try to blame others for failure.


    by corph on Fri May 16, 2008 at 03:31:57 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: You're absolutely right. (none / 0)

    I have yet to see anyone make the parallel argument:

    If Hillary Clinton were black, no one would have ever heard of her.  She certainly would not have been elected to the Senate in New York, granting she was running on her exposure as First Lady.  Which she wouldn't have been - no black presidents.


    We should be able to deliver bottled hot water to dehydrated babies.
    by Jess81 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 03:54:56 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: You're absolutely right. (2.00 / 1)

    If a woman candidate had emerged with Obama's background and resume and chose not to accept lobbyist money and ran a 50-state strategy instead of mocking the 50-state strategy then I'd be campaigning for her.

    Or do you think I just chose Obama for his penis?


    by luckymortal on Fri May 16, 2008 at 07:32:59 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: You're absolutely right. (none / 0)

    Oh please, no more of that phony stuff about lobbyists.  He HAS accepted lobbyist money.  His chief strategist is a nuclear industry flack.  A lobbyist helped him buy his house.  That was no boneheaded mistake.  A real estate settlement is not something that happens in three minutes.  He knew exactly what he was doing.  He has NOT followed a 50-state strategy.  Just last week he did not even campaign in West Virginia.

    And as for his resume, there isn't any.  He has no significant achievements.  His record as a state senator and U.S. Senator is undistinguished.

    As for why you chose him, only God knows, but it wasn't his achievements.


    by PlainWords on Fri May 16, 2008 at 07:40:45 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Alegre, you've become toxic. (1.33 / 3)

    I'm no mind reader, but I can't think of any reason for you to post this kind of stuff but this: you want to intentionally divide the party to prove how necessary HRC is.

    You're putting a candidate before our shared values within our community.

    I wonder how you sleep at night....


    by luckymortal on Fri May 16, 2008 at 03:18:59 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: Alegre, you've become toxic. (none / 0)

    I was responding in kind to Alegre, whose comment was innapropriate. The form of mine and its sentiment are intended as the same.

    Please let me know what I did that deserves to be troll-rated. If I did something inappropriate I'd really like to know. I truly value fair discourse and it was on those grounds that I wrote the comment.

    I always let people know why I TR them, and I apologize if I'm wrong.

    ANd if I'm wrong here, I'd like to know why.

    Otherwise I'll just assume that you're TRing because you want to censor my brilliantly persuasive commentary.

    ;)


    by luckymortal on Fri May 16, 2008 at 07:44:21 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: It's Not Sexism, It's Ideology (none / 0)

    exactamundo!


    "Me Fail English? That's Unpossible." Ralph Wiggum
    by canadian gal on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:09:23 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: It's Not Sexism, It's Ideology (2.00 / 16)

    Well said...exactly the reason I switched from Hillary to Obama in the fall.  It was very obvious to me that Barack Obama was not triangulating his way to the White House like Hillary insisted on doing.
    I love Hillary.  I understand why she is running the kind of campaign she is running...it worked for her husband.  And she did not think she could win without doing it.  I know she is a progressive at heart.  But governing is inextricably linked to how you campaign for better or worse.
    I look forward to the first female President. I can't wait.  There are some good candidates out there.  Hillary wasn't bad, but she didn't live up to what I expected.
    by gorebeatbush2 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:10:56 AM EST

    Re: It's Not Sexism, It's Ideology (2.00 / 8)

    the clintons established their cred in an anti-Democratic environment, and learned to play it safe and conservative to win.

    That may have been necessary in 1992 (though I have my doubts).  It's exactly the wrong tack now, which is why they lost.


    It's all about McCain/Bush now...
    by thereisnospoon on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:16:12 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: It's Not Sexism, It's Ideology (none / 0)

    Exactly!!!!


    by mikeinsf on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:09:03 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    you switched because Hillary is (2.00 / 4)

    triangulating?  Are you kidding?  Obama is the master of triangulation and Hillary is not Bill.


    For Obama it now becomes: Faith, hope and CHANGE! And the greatest of these is Change!
    by TeresaInPa on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:02:16 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Triangulation is the DLC's bread and butter. (2.00 / 8)


    by dystopianfuturetoday on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:11:26 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: you switched because Hillary is (2.00 / 1)

    saying it does not make it so.


    Visit Election Inspection for analysis, polls, and predictions!
    by X Stryker on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:32:10 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: It's Not Sexism, It's Ideology (2.00 / 1)

    dream on, you may not be sexist, some may think she uniquely deserves to be trashed and diminished, but, dream on. Plus, she's still in it, she's back the the popular vote. turns out that all along the votes were certified, it's just the delegates that are subject to bickering, she's been in the lead through most of this. Cool?  You can go back to her now.  


    by anna shane on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:22:16 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: It's Not Sexism, It's Ideology (2.00 / 3)

    sigh


    by vermontprog on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:55:48 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: It's Not Sexism, It's Ideology (2.00 / 2)

    You are just ridiculing yourself. But if you enjoy that, do go on.


    by Fairy Tale on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:13:00 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: It's Not Sexism, It's Ideology (2.00 / 1)

    She's been ahead all along? Now who's dreaming?


    Visit Election Inspection for analysis, polls, and predictions!
    by X Stryker on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:33:09 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: It's Not Sexism, It's Ideology (2.00 / 3)

    Please repeat after me:

    "The popular vote total does not include votes cast in certain caucus states like Maine, Washington and Iowa. We cannot seriously discuss the popular vote without including those voters, as well."

    For a campaign that's made such an issue of "disenfranchisement," it's utterly contradictory to make your case on the popular vote and simply leave all those voters out of it.


    by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:52:20 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: It's Not Sexism, It's Ideology (none / 0)

    That's assuming he didn't get a single vote in MI. A state most Clinton supporters admit he'd probably win in a revote. But whatever, keep making sure every vote counts...as long as it's a vote you agree with.


    by Djo on Fri May 16, 2008 at 04:59:09 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Remember that in Hillary's world.... (none / 0)

    ....votes always count, in the first person, ie MY votes, its in the third person, their votes, that they don't count.  Its a matter of grammer


    "You might well think that. I couldn't possibly comment"
    by xenontab on Sat May 17, 2008 at 02:05:06 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    good heavens (1.20 / 20)

    we came over here to get away from you and your pals.


    by curryorama on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:11:14 AM EST

    Re: good heavens (2.00 / 20)

    i have a right to be here.  I've been here a very long time.  It doesn't really do much good to post this at DailyKos (though I will); they already know this is true.

    The point is to establish a dialogue with a certain portion of the Hillary crowd: the ones that backed her candidacy because it was her candidacy, and not because of the ideology.

    The ones who would never have backed her had she been male.  They need to hear this.

    As for the centrist Dems who think Obama is too scary/progressive/whatever?  Pointless.


    It's all about McCain/Bush now...
    by thereisnospoon on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:14:15 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: good heavens (1.22 / 9)

    It doesn't really do much good to post this at DailyKos (though I will); they already know this is true.

    Not a lot of fun preaching to an echo chamber, is it? Doesn't work so well when it drives everybody you might ever want to persuade somewhere else, does it?

    And yet you and your friends did everything you could to create that environment over there. Why don't you stick with your unseemly creation?


    by frankly0 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:21:49 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: good heavens (1.94 / 17)

    Hillary never had more than 11% support at DailyKos at any time.  Ever.  Look at the polls going back over a year.

    Anti-Hillary communication at dkos was not against the 11% max of Clinton supporters, but rather at outside media and voters who read the blogs.  

    The nomination fight is already essentially over, and there's no need to convince voters or the media of that.

    I'm writing this here to talk now to the Hillary supporters who feel hurt and jilted and are attempting to explain away the defeat by blaming a conspiracy of sexism.

    And what I'm saying is that they should be encouraged rather than discouraged, because the result was not anti-woman, but rather anti-Clinton.


    It's all about McCain/Bush now...
    by thereisnospoon on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:25:52 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: good heavens (2.00 / 3)

    Anti-Hillary communication at dkos was not against the 11% max of Clinton supporters, but rather at outside media and voters who read the blogs.  

    Really, if you can seriously assert this, one can't help but wonder if you are even capable of engaging honest argument.


    by frankly0 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:34:16 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: good heavens (1.90 / 11)

    whatever you say.  The target of my anti-Hillary diaries was not people like Universal and Alegre--it was activist and media types who read DailyKos.


    It's all about McCain/Bush now...
    by thereisnospoon on Fri May 16, 2008 at 08:52:31 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: good heavens (2.00 / 5)

    Look, virtually everyone here who is a Hillary supporter has scars from the treatment they've received at DailyKos. So don't pretend that DKos was only targeting media types and activists (whatever that weaselly catchall might be intending to cover) and not Hillary supporters, OK? The atmosphere over there was absolutely vile toward dissenters. And no one in "authority" at DKos did a damn thing to tamp it down, but instead would write incendiary diaries essentially guaranteed to bring the worst ugliness out of the woodworks.

    Really, if you can't be honest about that basic fact, why should anyone listen to you?

    So, I think the expression is, don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining, OK?

    DKos has done everything it could to anger Hillary supporters, and yet you come here, essentially asserting that none of that happened, and lecturing us that we shouldn't feel hurt or resentful.

    All in all, it's a pretty nauseating display of smug self-righteousness and breathtaking insincerity.


    by frankly0 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:31:08 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: good heavens (1.92 / 14)

    So, because you carry scars from daily kos you can't engage in legitimate discussions about ideology?  Get over it already.  Hillary supporters have created their own echo chamber.  We need real, fact based discussions.  I am sorry your feelings got hurt.  I apologize for anything anyone ever said, now can we move on to actually discussing policy and ideology?


    by temptxan on Fri May 16, 2008 at 09:45:54 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: good heavens (2.00 / 3)

    I am sorry your feelings got hurt.  I apologize for anything anyone ever said,

    You really just are not constitutionally capable of understanding how that kind of sarcasm is just rubbing it in, instead of trying to "reach out", are you? You really do just want to do everything you can to continue to antagonize Hillary supporters, don't you?

    How about just getting out of our faces altogether if this is your idea of "making up", OK? You can't even begin to see your own phoniness on the issue.

    Let's face facts: now you people know that you desperately need the votes and support of the very people you were just trashing a short while ago, and calling every last name on the books, but you really can't seem to stop yourselves from reverting to your nasty type when others have a little problem with your attitude.

    Those of us on the other side have to ask ourselves, do we really want to hand over power to a movement so deeply into its own smugness and self-righteousness, so dismissive of other points of view that we can know in advance we will never be taken seriously, and will only be disempowering ourselves if we grant them control? Why on earth should we welcome or support such a movement?


    by frankly0 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:36:56 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: good heavens (2.00 / 3)

    Don't flatter yourself.  It would be a pretty pointless exercise to try and get the votes of the .01% of Clinton's supporters who don't know what she knows: McCain in the White House will kill people.  If you are so starstruck by HRC to not know that, then there's no use in even trying.


    by mikeinsf on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:15:16 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: good heavens (2.00 / 1)

    I get that this is not easy on you and other Clinton diehards.

    I think it goes both ways - that if our situations were reversed and Clinton the nominee, that the conversation and feelings would be about the same.  We'd resent the worst excesses of Clinton supporters, and you'd be depending on us to unify.

    Politics is not known for bringing out the very best in people.  The campaign's gotten extremely passionate on both sides, and wingers are doing their best to exploit that division.  We have to cope with that and not let it interrupt our forward motion as a progressive movement.

    I hope, if my candidate were losing, I'd be able to rise above the pain and unify.  I'm not sure I would, but I hope so.


    McCain: because not everyone's ready to say goodbye to W yet!
    by Matt Smith on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:17:32 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: good heavens (2.00 / 1)

    It's unfortunate you can't grasp that others view your own words and might possibly charactarize Hillary supporters in general in the same manner you've painted 'the other side'.

    It's pretty basic.


    by fisheye on Fri May 16, 2008 at 02:43:52 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: good heavens (2.00 / 9)

    Why do you admire a candidate for her toughness but seek every opportunity to display your personal grievances and amplify slights?  HRC and BO have both expressed solidarity with one another.  They have often addressed and referred to one another with graciousness and respect.  I expect those instances to increase in coming weeks.  Let's emulate the leaders we support.


    The future is unwritten
    by Strummerson on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:02:26 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: good heavens (1.60 / 5)

    And you can't seem to deal with what the basic issue for many of us is: that we know in our bones that we will never be given the time of day by Obama or the nasty little "movement" he has engendered -- anymore than we have been vouchsafed any legitimacy so far (and have, instead, been called racists and God knows what else by them).

    We have every reason to believe that the Obama camp is only pretending to "reach out" to us because you are desperate for our votes, and will simply return to your arrogance and dismissiveness if and when Obama happens to win.

    Why should we support our own certain disempowerment? Because, trust me, we absolutely don't believe you or Obama when you say that you "really care" and "really want to unify". We've seen your caring and unification, and let's just say it really, really sucks.


    by frankly0 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:48:08 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: good heavens (2.00 / 3)

    No. Actually I can deal with that.  I am helped in dealing with it by the fact that many good people whom I respect, who supported HRC's candidacy for very compelling reasons, do nor seem comitted to reinforcing the ugliest interpretations of Obama and his supporters.  They seek empowerment by recognizing the vastly shared agenda between the two candidates and looking forward to a role for HRC either as a part of or in consort with an Obama administration they want her to help bring about.  They do not generalize his supporters or call them names.  They understand how the causes and constituencies these candidates represent desperately need all out votes and that we owe it to our children to change the direction in this country.  I know and like many of these people.  I respect their passion and their disappointment, as I respect much of what HRC stands for and her tenacity in doing so.  If Clinton and Obama and their respective supporters can focus on shared goals, as opposed to amplifying slights or letting the obnoxious ones on both sides derail us, we will all be empowered, including Clinton herself.  If you think the alternative is better for you, for her, and for the country, I can deal with that fact.  But I deal with it because I believe that you are part of a shrinking minority and I believe things are moving in a positive direction for all involved.  A month ago I had my doubts.  I hope the situation a month from now will confirm my current perspective.


    The future is unwritten
    by Strummerson on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:14:33 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: good heavens (2.00 / 3)

    You see, for many of us, the ship sailed on any sincerity in Obama's claim to "unification" when he and his campaign played the race card -- the vilest accusation in all of American politics -- and then engaged in and happily profited from sexism, some of it quite vile.

    That's not a record that goes away simply by declaring that it's time to "unify" because our guy won.

    I repeat: we have absolutely no reason in the world to believe that Obama will take Hillary's supporters, or their point of view, as anything other than something he can use just so long as he needs it to get elected. We have every reason to believe that he and his "movement" will treat us as poor cousins at best if and when he wins the Presidency.

    Why should we disempower ourselves?

    Most especially, why should we do so, when we fully expect that if Obama were to win, he'd quickly turn into a very unpopular and probably unelectable figure, just as Carter had done in the past, and as his doppleganger, Deval Patrick, has done in Massachusetts? How is that, in the long run, any good for us or the Democratic Party?


    by frankly0 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:28:31 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: good heavens (2.00 / 1)

    Your interpretation of these events is not a necessary one.  There is more than one way of understanding the narrative of this campaign.  Yours is the least helpful and most harmful to all involved.  I am gratified that the "many of us" you refer to appears to be a shifting and shrinking constituency.

    I don't think I am treating you as a poor cousin and I think your support is crucial to moving the country in the direction I think we both want it to go.  I don't think an Obama administration would treat you any differently than it would treat me, and I think we will both benefit.  Neither of us are getting invited to parties at the White House.  Our aspirations will be advocated for.  We'll all be treated as citizens in an increasingly Democratic republic.  Education and access to health care will improve, the middle class will be stabilized, our troops will have a Commander in Chief who does not use them for ill conceived and poorly executed political adventures, and we'll be more respected by allies abroad.  You and I will be in exactly the same position.  If you think that makes us poor cousins, let me emphasize that there is no shame in poverty and I welcome your kinship.


    The future is unwritten
    by Strummerson on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:37:37 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: good heavens (none / 0)

    I keep reading all these tales of woe from former Kossack Hillary supporters about how they were so "mistreated."

    Hillary may have been mistreated. But her supporters were rarely if ever personally attacked. Seems to me people just got sick of seeing Hillary trashed non-stop and left. And that's a perfectly legit reason--I wouldn't want to stick around a place like hillaryis44 or no quarter.

    But turning it into a problem of people being too anti-Hillary-supporter rather than too anti-Hillary seems to overstate and internalize matters drastically. I'm not saying I never saw a Hillary supporter get denigrated (especially when they're trolling or posting rightwing Obama hitpieces, as Barry MIA still does), but it sure as heck wasn't this crazed witch-hunt people here like to portray.

    (And usually, the proof is some vague accusation of shadowy "admins" doing terrible things to them, even though dKos barely has any admins at all and the site rarely if ever deletes any content.)


    by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:59:37 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: good heavens (2.00 / 1)

    So, unlike Hillary herself who is tough and keeps fighting despite the reality that her chances are over, you ran from DKos like... I can't think of any non-offensive metaphors here. The point is that Hillary fans ran and hid at MyDD rather than face their critics. And prominent Obama supporters, one-by-one, were leaving MyDD in disgust for a while, too, until people like Bob Johnson and thereisnospoon came back and reminded us that we were here long before things went downHill. Most of us never really left, we just stopped reading the stupid diaries for a while. There are things about MyDD and DKos that are too valuable to abandon.


    Visit Election Inspection for analysis, polls, and predictions!
    by X Stryker on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:03:58 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: good heavens (2.00 / 1)

    As a Obama supporter I am sure you see it that way but the truth is that every day Clinton supporters were told they were not welcome/wanted on DK.

    Hey, no problem. I can live without visiting there.


    by J Rae on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:06:16 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    crashing the gate (2.00 / 3)

    Hillary never had more than 11% support at DailyKos at any time.

    Considering DKos has always been about crashing the gate, the 50 state stragegy, and consequently not fans of the DLC... I am not surprised Clinton was never favored there.  This is also why I don't buy into charges of massive sexism coming from that sphere.  Yes, you will always find a few nuckledraggers in any forum, but mostly it really is about ideology and issues.  These are progressive blogs after all, not redstate and the like.

    Yes, we have differences.  The differences are real.  But we are all still united by core progressive values.  I refuse to believe that racism or sexism are playing any major roll in our support... thats what the Republicans would like us to believe only so we stay divided.


    by protothad on Fri May 16, 2008 at 01:19:41 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Look at the polls here (2.00 / 2)

    Hillary has never led on MyDD polls either.  


    McCain = Iraq. John McCain = overturn Roe.
    by PantsB on Fri May 16, 2008 at 01:53:03 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: good heavens (2.00 / 1)

    I guess you never visited DKos when it was mostly pro-Edwards. I think you also may not have known that DKos is a progressive site, and that Obama has been running the kind of campaign DKos has been talking about since Howard Dean. DKos didn't magically turn against Hillary, she simply took on an ideology and strategy that was antithetical to the Terry-McAuliffe-hating progressive blogosphere. Blame Terry!


    Visit Election Inspection for analysis, polls, and predictions!
    by X Stryker on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:36:44 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: good heavens (1.50 / 2)

    I think you also may not have known that DKos is was a progressive site, it's Obama's echo chamber now


    Join : Get FISA Right on my.barackobama.com
    by devil on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:05:17 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Re: good heavens (2.00 / 1)

    Meh.  Vote for Bush's wars and you do poorly on progressive sites.  Is that a surprise?


    by mikeinsf on Fri May 16, 2008 at 12:18:32 PM EST
    [ Parent ]

    Umm-"need to hear"... (1.80 / 5)

    I don't think you're going to get too far pronouncing that you have what people "need to hear".

    Your peculiar form of truth more properly belongs at the orange church of Obama, a cult I escaped, but I guess now they are sending out missionaries to  prosthelytize to us heath